MUD transcript: 09-03-00
Web Authoring; Projects
Course room(s): PPS
22:53:29 RobertO says "is there a mud session soon?"
22:55:45 ClareS connects.
RamananS Common Telnet 18m 7s 2m 35s
RobertO PPS HTTP 9m 46s 2m 16s
ClareS PPS HTTP 0s 0s
22:55:51 ClareS says "Hi"
22:56:19 RobertO says "hello is there a mud session now"
22:57:00 ClareS says "yes there is, starting at 23:00GMT"
22:57:11 ClareS says "did you get the message to the list?"
22:57:36 ChristopherA connects.
RamananS Common Telnet 19m 58s 4m 26s
RobertO PPS HTTP 11m 37s 1m 17s
ClareS PPS HTTP 1m 51s 25s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 0s 0s
22:57:42 RobertO says "yes, I just remembered and I am at work so I didnt have the mail."
22:57:43 ClareS says "we will wait a few minutes before starting properly"
22:58:02 ClareS says (to ChristopherA) "welcome!"
22:58:05 MichaelS connects.
RamananS Common Telnet 20m 27s 2s
RobertO PPS HTTP 12m 6s 23s
ClareS PPS HTTP 2m 20s 3s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 29s 29s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 0s 0s
22:58:35 ChristopherA says "Hi everybody"
22:58:38 MichaelS says "Good evening all, or afternoon for those Stateside!"
22:58:56 ClareS says (to MichaelS) "Hi"
22:59:23 ClareS says (to RobertO) "is the connection better than it was last time?"
22:59:49 RobertO says "yes much...no problems now"
23:00:32 ClareS says "Excellent... then let's start"
23:00:43 ClareS says "others can join us later"
23:01:02 ClareS says "this session is mainly to discuss the web authoring material, but also..."
23:01:22 ClareS says "it would be a good time to start talking a bit about the projects..."
23:01:45 SarahL connects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 24m 7s 2m 12s
RobertO PPS HTTP 15m 46s 38s
ClareS PPS HTTP 6m 0s 23s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 4m 9s 3m 10s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 3m 40s 3m 7s
SarahL PPS HTTP 0s 0s
23:01:50 ClareS says "and if anyone has a burning question about bioinformatics that didn't get answered as the last session was cancelled, now would be a good time to ask it"
23:02:09 DiabE connects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 24m 31s 2m 36s
RobertO PPS HTTP 16m 10s 1m 2s
ClareS PPS HTTP 6m 24s 19s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 4m 33s 3m 34s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 4m 4s 3m 31s
SarahL PPS HTTP 24s 24s
DiabE PPS HTTP 0s 0s
23:02:35 ClareS welcomes Sarah and Diab
23:03:00 ClareS says "so: does anyone have a question to start with: on any of these topics?"
23:03:03 SarahL says "hello everyone"
23:04:27 RobertO says "yes, is it possible to do a project that is associated with something we are currently working on, subject to your approval of course."
23:04:33 DiabE says "hello every body"
23:05:21 ClareS says (to RobertO) "that's a very good question -- the answer is that it could be possible *within very strict limits*"
23:05:55 ClareS says "we have to judge the projects equally if possible, and it's not fair if some people get a "head start""
23:06:09 RobertO says "could you utline those a bit."
23:06:34 ClareS says "so we will be posting a list of projects on the website in May or June"
23:06:51 ClareS says "you will be expected to select one of those projects..."
23:07:27 SarahL says "will we submit our projects as a web site"
23:07:33 ClareS says "but if you'd like to modify one that may well be possible. You should email David or me saying how you want to change it and why"
23:07:44 RobertO says "yes I see, I was thinking of something along the lines of what I work on but not started yet."
23:08:08 ClareS says "e.g. you might want to select a protein that you were working on as a case study"
23:08:56 RamananS says " or" OR"
23:09:10 RobertO says "for example using the idea of one of your projects but applied to a system I would like to explore. sorry sort of vague."
23:10:15 ChristopherA says "will it be possible to see projects from previous years or will you be using project titles on the same lines?"
23:11:03 RobertO says "yes it would be good to see examples to get an idea of what is expected."
23:11:19 DiabE says "i want to ask about alpha+beta motif how is differ from alpha/beta domain"
23:11:23 ClareS says "as an example, look at a project from a couple of years ago"
23:11:39 ClareS says "http://pps98.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/assignment/projects/debono/index.html"
23:11:50 RamananS says "Is there a chance for someone who leaves choosing a project for late to miss out on the limited number of choices?"
23:12:14 ClareS says "The title we set was "convergent evolution" but the examples he picked out were those he'd worked on"
23:12:55 ClareS says (to ChristopherA) "yes -- when we post the project titles we will also give you the links to pages of completed projects from previous years"
23:13:56 ChristopherA says "thanks that will be invaluble!"
23:13:58 ClareS says "there will be full instructions on the web eventually -- this is just an early chance to talk through what is involved"
23:14:32 ClareS says "all the projects we link to were good enough to pass that part of the course"
23:14:56 RobertO says "then the project is a web based production and that is how it is handed in?"
23:15:01 ClareS says (to RamananS) "it probably doesn't matter as much as you think: we *do* allow more than one student to pick the same project"
23:15:41 ClareS says "the only exception is for students working in the same institution"
23:16:20 ClareS says (to RobertO) "yes, you write it in HTML (obviously, include images, PDB files rasmol scripts or whatever) and submit it by email"
23:16:37 SarahL says "how much time should we dedicate to our project"
23:16:39 ClareS says "all will be made clear (eventually...)"
23:17:08 RobertO says "Oh,it resides on YOUR site and not ours then?"
23:17:35 ClareS says (to SarahL) "as a very rough guideline we expect people to spend 6-8 hours a week on the course"
23:17:38 RamananS says "Cajn I ask [D about VRML? Is it still being used i much?Or is it now too old a technology?"
23:17:49 RobertO says "how long do we have to decide and if modifying to get approval"
23:18:04 ClareS says "during August & September that time will be taken up by the project & revision"
23:18:16 ClareS says "in October, by the project only"
23:18:35 ClareS says (to RobertO) "answering your two questions in turn..."
23:19:00 ClareS says "1) yes, we put all the projects up here (there's nothing to stop you having a copy on your site as well as course)"
23:19:30 ClareS says "2) we aim to get the titles out in June, you should notify your tutor of your choice in early August"
23:19:48 ClareS says "that *should* give you enough time"
23:20:13 ClareS says (to RamananS) "VRML is certainly not used very much"
23:20:48 ClareS says "it's not so much that it's an old technology, but it's one that hasn't caught on properly (yet) for whatever reason"
23:20:57 RobertO says "yes seems like enough time....is it a pass fail, grade, or a submit and comment type of grading sysstem"
23:21:46 RobertO rob cant type!
23:22:43 ClareS says (to RobertO) "the projects are just graded Pass and Fail at the moment"
23:23:08 ClareS says "tho' there is a possibility that we will change to awarding distinctions"
23:23:27 SarahL says "should we trying out all the web editing as well as looking through the tutorial, I seem to be loading down alot of stuff, and my home computer is groaning under the strain!"
23:23:37 ClareS says "at least for those students who want to go on to take the M.Sc."
23:24:17 ClareS says (to SarahL) "it's up to you, you certainly don't have to try out everything"
23:24:30 ClareS says "(unless you want to, of course ;0"
23:24:53 ClareS can't type either
23:24:54 RobertO says "ah, can you comment more on the progress of approval for the M. Sc."
23:25:14 SarahL says "i think the computer will give up before I do!"
23:25:23 RamananS says "Iam so keen I want to know more about the ania''[D ''sorry''......."
23:25:23 ClareS says "how much do you already know?"
23:25:51 RamananS says "....I want to know more about the animations using Flash."
23:25:53 ClareS says (to RamananS) "sorry.. I am not clear what you want to know more about, could you repeat the question?"
23:26:03 ClareS understands now
23:26:36 RobertO says "well I had talked with david at the iucr meeting and he said it was underway and that the PPS and probably the crystllograpy section would be the core of it."
23:26:54 RamananS says "I have seen few biochemical prcesses being animatewd on the web using Falash and it seems to clkarify the subject matter weel."
23:27:37 RamananS says "Will it be possible to use such methods in the project()if there is a cjhance of course)"
23:28:13 ClareS says "I don't know a great deal about Flash: but you could try http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/ for all the info"
23:28:35 ClareS says "Flash is certainly excellent for biochemical animations"
23:28:54 ClareS says "the problem is that the software used to produce those animations is costly"
23:29:04 ClareS says "well, at least not free ;)"
23:29:46 ClareS says "if you have the software you can certainly use it in the project, but we don't expect you to"
23:30:23 ClareS says "it is Birkbeck's policy that once you've paid for the course & made sure your computer is up to it you shouldn't also have to pay for software"
23:30:42 RamananS says "so I take it that methods and techniques that might require users to have additional plug ins to the usual browser software are allowed for the project"
23:31:40 ChristopherA disconnects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 54m 2s 58s
RobertO PPS HTTP 45m 41s 5m 4s
ClareS PPS HTTP 35m 55s 1m 17s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 33m 35s 33m 2s
SarahL PPS HTTP 29m 55s 6m 26s
DiabE PPS HTTP 29m 31s 1m 0s
Wizard Void HTTP 20m 26s 11m 20s
23:32:51 ClareS says "yes, you can certainly use plugins like Chime if you like"
23:33:19 ClareS says "in fact, you *can* use Macromedia software: but we can't give you any extra credit for doing so"
23:33:33 SarahL says "how much enphasis is placed on the presentation of the project as we are some people have a lot more experience of web editing than others, I am just a beginner"
23:34:24 ClareS says (to SarahL) "we expect you to know enough web stuff to put together a simple site that explains an aspect of protein structure"
23:34:26 ChristopherA connects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 56m 48s 3m 44s
RobertO PPS HTTP 48m 27s 7m 50s
ClareS PPS HTTP 38m 41s 2s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 0s 0s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 36m 21s 35m 48s
SarahL PPS HTTP 32m 41s 53s
DiabE PPS HTTP 32m 17s 3m 46s
Wizard Void HTTP 23m 12s 14m 6s
23:34:41 ClareS says "we don't expect web programming or animations"
23:35:17 ClareS says "a project that was all text and no images, however, wouldn't be passed"
23:35:44 DiabE says "is there is any M Sc courses in web site"
23:36:03 SarahL says " so it doesn't have to be overly complicated as long as you demonstrate that you can use a variety of techniques"
23:36:18 ClareS says (to SarahL) "exactly!"
23:36:35 RamananS says "but I feel animations can cut down the load of work involved in trying to describe even molecular motions relating to structres.eg;an enzymatic action"
23:37:47 ClareS says (to RamananS) "of course they can, if done well: the only point I would like to emphasise is that we can't *expect* all students to have access to this level of technology"
23:38:23 ClareS says "and we can't expect someone who hasn't written any HTML before this course to suddenly start producing animations and javasacript"
23:38:44 SarahL says "I don't think that I will be able to get as far as using animation not if I want to spend time with my Kids in the summer holidays!"
23:38:45 ClareS says "when the emphasis of the course is on protein structure rather than web skills"
23:39:07 ClareS says (to SarahL) "I hope that you are reassured that we won't expect you to"
23:39:46 SarahL says " thank you"
23:39:48 ClareS says "are there any more specific questions or comments about web authoring or the projects?"
23:40:42 ClareS looks round expectantly
23:41:10 RobertO shakes his head no
23:41:27 MichaelS says "The notes talk about using various text editors, and also mentions wweb authoring applications. Do you have any opinion on a preferred path to go down for us?"
23:42:01 ClareS says "everyone has a different opinion on this, pick something that works for you and use it"
23:42:40 ClareS says "I find text editors are more flexible but some of the authoring tools are easier to use"
23:43:04 ClareS says "Netscape Communicator and Microsoft's Front Page are (IMHO) good ones"
23:43:22 ClareS says "(and Communicator has the extra merit of being free ;)"
23:43:36 RamananS says nothing.
23:43:52 ClareS says "I really dislike the older versions of Microsoft Word Internet Assistant"
23:44:05 SarahL says "I am looking forward to the next part of the course , I am will probably find this section more useful when I start to put my project together"
23:44:28 ClareS looks at ramanans, puzzled
23:45:00 RamananS says "http://w3c.org/ should have a recent version of Amaya a free tool for web authoring for download."
23:45:18 ClareS says "there are some very sophisticated tools out there, if one works for you, use it"
23:45:43 ClareS says "if you find you prefer a text editor you're in very good company, a lot of web professionals work that way"
23:45:53 ClareS says (to RamananS) "thanks!"
23:45:59 RamananS says "it is certainly better than any Microsoft product but may fall short of the advanced features of Dra...."
23:46:09 SarahL says "does any one have any suggestions to speed up my connection , I tried to down load netscape 4.7 and it took so long I gave up in the end"
23:46:16 RamananS says "Macromediua's Dreamweaver."
23:46:45 ClareS says "I still think that FrontPage is one of the better of the Microsoft products, and it's also relatively cheap"
23:47:15 ClareS says "I haven't used Dreamweaver myself but I have heard only good things about it"
23:47:21 MichaelS says "While we are learing our way aroung authoring, how do we have a look at our handiwork? Is it simply a matter of changing some settings in Communicator, or do we really need to open a *real* web page?"
23:47:52 ClareS is running netscape 3 at home for the same reason
23:48:13 ClareS says (to MichaelS) "I don't really understand what you mean -- sorry"
23:48:33 RobertO says "you can point your browser to the file using the file:// comand to see it"
23:48:38 RamananS says "I think creay....sorry@"
23:48:59 ClareS says "you know about the View Source command in Navigator, I suppose"
23:49:37 MichaelS says "Oh yes. Thanks Robert!"
23:49:54 SarahL says "I have opened a page at netscape netsites although I haven't actually got very far withit"
23:50:03 ClareS at last understands the question
23:50:34 RamananS says "IN the project to be di...I cant type????.....done can there be any hyperlinks to other sources of information to cut down typing it in? Orf will this be a crime?"
23:50:42 DiabE says "why I don't have any answer to my questions any somthing wrong? Diab"
23:50:52 ClareS says "you can also use the File command to view a page on your local machine"
23:51:36 ClareS says (to DiabE) "I'm sorry, I haven't seen any questions from you - you must be using the wrong syntax, that last one was the first comment I've seen from you"
23:51:54 MichaelS says "with respect to latest versions of Netscape, I have been getting mine from internet magazines, and MacWorld etc. I assume therte's a Wintel equivalent."
23:52:40 ClareS says (to RamananS) "yes, you can link to any site you like provided that you don't try to pass it off as your own work"
23:53:13 ClareS says "and there must be enough of your own work there for us to know you've spent the required amount of time on it"
23:53:15 SarahL says " wintel? this must be computer speek!"
23:53:24 ClareS says "a simple list of links won't do ;0"
23:53:58 ClareS says (to SarahL) "Windows software running on a computer with an Intel chip: PCs, in other words"
23:54:37 MichaelS says "My apologies, Sarah. Wintel, as in non-Macintosh, Microsoft Windows/Intel"
23:54:46 DiabE says "is there is any M Sc courses in the web site? Diab"
23:54:59 SarahL says "all is clear now"
23:55:35 ClareS says "I'd like to finish in a few minutes, but before I do I *must* answer everyone's questions on the MSc"
23:56:02 ClareS says (to DiabE) "that question came through fine, sorry you've been having problems"
23:56:27 ClareS says (to DiabE) "it may even have been my netscape which crashed once or twice"
23:56:29 SarahL says "so that's my pc then even though its the slowest machine ever invented!"
23:57:02 ClareS says "As some of you know Birkbeck will be offering an Internet based MSc from next year"
23:57:47 ClareS says "assuming that the course proposal gets approved: the bureaucratic wheels are turning, but slowly"
23:58:07 ClareS says "MSc students will take PPS in the first year and another of our Adv Certs in the second"
23:58:26 SarahL says "will this course be accredited as part of the M.SC."
23:58:49 ClareS says "if you want it to"
23:58:54 ChristopherA disconnects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 1h 21m 31s
RobertO PPS HTTP 1h 12m 10m 21s
ClareS PPS HTTP 1h 3m 5s
MichaelS PPS HTTP 1h 0m 4m 17s
SarahL PPS HTTP 57m 9s 28s
DiabE PPS HTTP 56m 45s 4m 8s
23:59:26 ClareS says "next year we will only be offering one other appropriate Adv Cert: in Protein Crystallography"
23:59:30 RobertO says "what are the options for the second course"
00:00:03 ClareS says "after that you will be able to take that course or a new one: Techniques in Structural Molecular Biology"
00:00:11 RamananS says "these same bureaucrats can be convinced if the internet based technologies as applied to proein structure elucidation can be shown to be the best way other than any amount of lecture or paper wastage........"
00:00:28 SarahL says "I sarted this course as a fill in before doing an M.sc so it suits me fine thankyou ."
00:00:42 ClareS says "that one will be offered for the first time in 2001-2"
00:01:09 ClareS says "if you would prefer to take that course you will (I expect) be able to take a year out"
00:01:31 RobertO says "so only 2 courses are needed for the msc"
00:01:50 RamananS says "Do you agree some people specialize in test tubes some in illustrations some in explaining the both to ......."
00:01:52 ClareS says "you will have to do an extended project at the end of the second one"
00:02:23 SarahL says "will the other course start staight after this one finishes?"
00:02:27 RobertO says "what happens if the msc is not approved by the time the crystllagraphy course starts this fall"
00:02:37 ClareS says "the fees for the second Adv Cert are higher if you want to be registered for the MSc"
00:03:07 ClareS says "but you have certain other priveleges e.g. access to electronic journals"
00:03:25 RobertO says "how much higher do you expect percentage wise"
00:03:47 ClareS says "if you don't want an MSc or can't afford the fees you can still do the second Adv Cert just as an Adv Cert, and without library priveleges"
00:04:01 ClareS says (to RobertO) "I don't think the fees are fixed yet"
00:04:37 ClareS says (to SarahL) "you would start the second Adv Cert this October or possibly the one after"
00:05:02 ClareS says (to RobertO) "I really doubt that things will move *that* slowly"
00:05:16 MichaelS disconnects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 1h 27m 3m 26s
RobertO PPS HTTP 1h 19m 1m 51s
ClareS PPS HTTP 1h 9m 14s
SarahL PPS HTTP 1h 3m 2m 53s
DiabE PPS HTTP 1h 3m 10m 30s
00:05:20 SarahL says " does the Molecular biology cert start after this course finishes"
00:06:14 ClareS says "the new Techniques course will start for *the first time* in 2001"
00:06:30 RobertO says "what can we expect for a "longer " project, some example is fine"
00:06:37 ClareS yawns
00:07:19 SarahL says "so I will have to wait a year to do the molecular biology course?"
00:07:21 ClareS says (to RobertO) "the rules aren't completely fixed yet - that's one of the things the college committees have to decide"
00:07:49 ClareS says (to SarahL) "yes, but you could do protein crystallography instead earlier"
00:08:36 ClareS says "I'd like to wind this session up now; are there any final questions before I fall asleep?"
00:08:39 ChristopherA connects.
RamananS PPS Telnet 1h 31m 6m 49s
RobertO PPS HTTP 1h 22m 1m 22s
ClareS PPS HTTP 1h 12m 3s
ChristopherA PPS HTTP 0s 0s
SarahL PPS HTTP 1h 6m 1m 20s
DiabE PPS HTTP 1h 6m 13m 53s
00:09:32 RobertO says "tis time I said goodnight from the colonies....or more appropriately good afternoon!"
00:09:52 ClareS says (to RobertO) "good afternoon!"
00:10:08 ClareS says "and goodnight..."
00:10:26 RamananS says "good night then."
00:10:48 SarahL says " yes its Midnight here it's time to be going to bed. Work in the Morning"
00:11:00 ClareS disconnects.